Trying to Decide Whether Fantasy Can Become Real

[nightshade44637]

My fiance and I are are a committed and loving couple, we intend to spend our lives together and though we aren't married by law see ourselves that way since we had been together a year (it's been nearly 7). Since about that time he has known that I am bi and I had discussed with him the idea of me exploring my attraction to women and that it might lead to polyamoury or at least threesome sex. We are each others first.

It's been 5 years since I shared this idea with him and my/our interest in acting on this have shifted from not acting on it, to me looking for a woman just for me, and back to acting on it again. We've been very seriously discussing our sexuality lately, intensive discussions on sexual fantasies that we hadn't brought up before and our views on how we see other people on a sexual level. On a lot of levels we feel it has brought us closer on a sexual and emotional level and is tittilating to consider these fantasies and talk about how we'd act in them during sex.

The three fantasies that have caused me some concern in terms of worries about it changing/ending our relationship if we act on them are :going to an orgy (wether that means to keep it voyuer other than us interacting sexually or joining a third), an FFM and a MMF.Let me make this clear. at no point has he been drawn to cheat(if anything I'd say he finds the idea that he might ever want to rediculous) nor have I, we have a secure bond and we've discussed all these things very intensively discussing rules of interaction and why we feel that way and what effects could occur from bad to good.

Orgy: It's a fantasy from back when he was single that he never acted on and he expressed wanting to attend one with me. His interests are that he enjoys the voyuer role and that to him it would be like an "interactive porn". The most basic idea was that we could watch the other couples for purposes of arousal and then find somewhere for us alone to interact wether that meant going home or finding a place there. The more interactive one was that it could lead to the FFM or MMF.

FFM: It's been a long standing fantasy for us, going over it on a lot of levels has occured over time and been even more thoroughly discussed recently in terms of his level of interactivity and what he would enjoy if anything from entry with her. He's made this clear that it's about me being able to experiment with a woman and being there is purely sexual for him even if he never interacts with her beyond watching. His main concern here is that i am comfortable and we have decided that both of us must be comfortable for entry with her to be possible as well as oral interaction as far as us women sharing the role. I have told him that certain positions and interactions aren't comfortable for me (he could only enter from behind, she may not orally stimulate him by herself, in no way would i be comfortable with him entering her while she orally stimulates me) and any insecurities I have with him enterign evne thoguh it turns me on to think of it and i feel it gives him the ability to experience another woman in a safe environment where i can say no if it makes me uncomfortable.

MMF: This one was actually pretty hard to get him to own up to. Why? He felt awkward sharing the idea with me due to his occassional curiosity about having entry with a man (him entering my fiance or him entering the other man), he didn't want me to feel he didn't respect me by having the fantasy(of sharing me with another man), and he's not bisexual but wants penetration to experience a more organic version of anal sex for himself. I knew it was there by some of the questions/statements he'd presented before: Had i thought of DP? He had thought about watching me blow someone else for him to watch. He had noticed that i downloaded MMF porn from time to time. It's an intense erotic fantasy for him and for me. In my case it's about being penetrated by multiple partners, enjoying my fiance orally while being penetrated (in a way i see the other man like an extention of my husband as if he were doing both to me at once), the idea of anal and or DP interests me, the aspect of being aroused and having the sexual attention of two men. For him it's about the eroticism of sharing me with another man, having the chance to have entry with the other man if he wants it, having the ability to have an outside view of what being in me is like, to experience a more primal/physical interaction and experience me at my most sexuallly open. We've discussed this well, jsut not as much as the FFM, by virtue of the time it's been in the open if nothing else.

Why am I up in the air about these fantasies?

I want to know if we act on them it isn't going to end or somehow irreparably change our relationship in an emotional or mental way( i.e that he might be more open to sexual attraction to other women that puts us at risk for him cheating, that either of us might be made insecure by having entry with someone else, that we might lose intimacy, that our personal sex life isn't going to be diminished, that he wont change his view on who i am as a person based on my sexual interaction or willingness to do certain things, that i might think the ffm is for him to experience other women more than my exploration of them if he enjoys it). I don't want jealousy to arise or for it to detract from our everyday lives. We'vetalked it over and over and i'm still unsure. what shouldi do?

[Mark & Lin]

I had very similar questions when Lin and I first started talking about our first MFM threesome about 15 years ago. Just wondering - have you read my post here in this forum titled "How We Got Involved in Swinging?" If so, you know what I mean. If not, may I suggest you read it? Maybe it'll give you a bit of insight as to what we thought and talked about before we invited another man to share our bed.

First of all, let me say that you both have to be able to trust each other 100% - without conditions or reservations. If you truly believe that swinging will cause a man (or a woman for that matter) to cheat, then I don't think you're giving your partner much credit. The overwhelming majority of people who cheat have never even thought about swinging, let alone tried it. Swinging usually isn't a factor. It's a very small minority of swingers who cheat - there's just no reason to.

You need to establish rules and limits for both of you, and be able to stick to them. You have to be up front with potential playmates, and all of you need to know and understand your rules and limits - and agree to stick to them. Your potential playmates will most likely have rules and limits of their own, and you'll have to be ready to either agree to them or explain why those rules and limits aren't acceptable to you and move on. You need to be absolutely sure that you both want to do this, and one of you isn't just going along with it to make the other happy. You both have to agree to stop, with no questions asked, if either of you feels uncomfortable. You both need to be 100% secure in your relationship, and be able to separate sex from love. You need to realize that recreational sex is just that - sex for pleasure, and nothing else. You have to be 100% committed to each other - and only each other. Both of you need to know that you're 100% committed to each other without question.

Yeah - it's pretty heavy. It's not just the opportunity to have sex with other people with each other's blessing. It's a confirmation of your commitment to each other, and much much more.

You both have a lot of thinking and talking to do. Just my opinion, but I don't think you should try this until you get these questions settled between the two of you. We've been a lifestyle couple for about 15 years, and we've seen couples flourish and grow in the lifestyle, and we've seen couples split up after trying it. If you have any doubts at all, don't do it. It's better to leave it a fantasy than risk doing anything to harm your relationship.

Yes your relationship will change - how it changes will be up to the two of you. For Lin and I, it makes us appreciate our intimacy more, and hold each other more dearly. It made us both more confident in the way we see our bodies, and more confident in our relationships with other people. We've met some fantastic people, and made some very good friends. We talk about our relationship and swinging often, and neither of us would change a thing. We're more respectful of each other's feelings, and listen to each other's wants, needs, and even fantasies a lot more closely.

Jealousy will enter into the picture at first - count on it. How that jealousy manifests itself is different for everyone. No two people react the same way to the same situation. Personally, I detached myself from the situation and looked at it as two people having sex, and not some other guy having sex with my wife. I did that because I didn't know how I'd react. It turns out that I reacted by getting incredibly turned on. I found out that I didn't need to detach myself, so I stopped doing it. Years later, there's no jealousy at all. We both know that we're madly in love with each other, and whatever we do with anyone else is just recreational, and that's all. Again, if either one of you feels uncomfortable after your first foray into the lifestyle, you both have to agree to stop - with no questions asked.

My advice is that you both talk about it a lot more and take some time to do some serious thinking on your own. Don't force answers to questions either of you have. You're in no hurry. Do some deep soul searching, and decide whether or not you really want to do this. You'll have a ton of questions, and an answer may just lead to more questions - that happens all the time.

If you have any other questions or comments, feel free to ask. I'm very passionate about our lifestyle, and I love to talk about it. Just remember that your relationship is the most important thing here - anything else can remain a fantasy.

Mark

[nightshade44637]

I really appreciated your response to my questions to be honest I did post it when I was having doubts and wondering what he wanted from it as a whole. We have talked about it quite a lot though the mfm is a more recent development the FFM has long been a discussion, especially due to the latent intimacy we see in it over MFM. To be honest if the MFM only ever gets to be him being penetrated I would be perfect happy to enjoy him having that while interacting with me. My biggest arousal/desire source is actually the amount of arousal and sensitivity he has for sex in general.

I feel like I can look at this from several angles, try to understand his side of it and my own and see all the sexual possibilities as well as all the side effects both good and bad. As a result of all this consideration we've made some goals in addition to our conversation on the topic outside sexual fantasy. To read up on advice like yours and talk about our opinions, to read both good and bad results and try to put ourself in both places to sort how we'd get there if it were to happen to us, to explore our intimacy and if we feel safe sharing our bodies with other people without that coming into it on an emotional level, and to clearly discuss and understand each others needs and positions or interaction that could make each react jealously.

We've decided that some positions or interactions or no-nos for both of us like mouth kissing, her on top him or facing him, me on top of the other man or him being in my vagina, and me offering the man oral stimulus. All these are things we feel are too intimate to share and only for us to enjoy and we both feel comfortable with these limitations once we discussed why they were too intimate for me or my partner. We already had the stop if either of us was uncomfortable thing settled, in fact certain acts can only occur if BOTH partners are ok with it and we have verbal verification from the other that is not purely "in the moment".

We want to take our time testing these waters as to what we want once faced with the real situation. the best way to get a feel for what we might feel about either threesome we feel, is to attend an orgy or swing club to watch others at play and see how we react to seeing the interaction at work and how sexual that is for either of us. if we can be comfortable with either of us being aroused by someone else and how that affects our perceptions of the other partner (jealousy, mutual arousal, disgust, understanding) should give us a general idea if we're even alright with open arousal that isn't directed at each other. Even if we are turned on in that environment we both agree keeping it between us that first time is best and that leaving a four month space of thinking and talking afterwards is vital to digest it and understand our actual opinions rather than running with it and finding ourselves regretful later.

Does this seem like a sound plan to follow? Are we headed in the right direction? We both feel that we're being more mature about this than a lot of people are, discussing it from every angle we can and discussing differing opinions to compare and potentially compromise before we even get close to acting on our fantasies.

[Ann Andriani]

Nightshade,

It sounds like you and your man have been very open with each other about this. That's wonderful! And very important too. A couple can not go into a sexual situation with an additional playmate unless some ground rules are made.

Mark has shared some great thoughts. It seems as though you're wondering if you've talked everything out enough. I'd like to point you towards my article on Larry and I's experience with a threesome. It shows the amount of communication and planning before and the amount of rehashing what happened afterwards. It's our true story and you'll see there was A LOT of talking.

How to Have a Threesome

I also want to echo Mark in saying that, no matter how much you talk and plan, there may still be a little bit of jealousy and/or insecurity. The important thing is to NOT let it get the best of you. It's important for the both of you to remember all the discussions you've had before all this. You're both still the same people you were before this night and you'll both, bottom line, be the same after this night. You will have evolved sexually, that's for sure, but in a good way. When you discuss what you just experienced afterwards, be very open and very honest. If you hide your feelings, you can't work through any trouble spots. You also have to listen objectively...no matter how difficult something might be to hear. This is the time to emotionally bear all, so you can work out the rough spots to see if there will even be a next time. And even then, you may not be able to come to a decision on that right away, depending on the experience you just had.

You seem to be setting some ground rules with what you're comfortable seeing your partner do and doing and that's fine, however, I do want to stress that you both remember that you're playing with another human being. Someone that also has feelings and needs in the bedroom as well. I'm not saying to do anything you're uncomfortable with, but as I was looking through some of things you don't want to happen. I'm concerned about the "not looking at the other person." That may create some real distance between all of you and could cause some awkwardness. I would say to look over your boundaries and then try to imagine how the encounter would happen if all those boundaries were in place. Imagine being the single person with a couple that had those rules. Would you feel comfortable?

It's important that your playmate understand what your rules are too. They have to agree that this is a situation they feel comfortable with as well. So you'll need to be upfront about that. I believe that many couples are that are in swing clubs and in the swinging lifestyle. You don't want there to be any awkwardness or hurt feelings due to a misunderstanding of boundaries.

Visiting a swing club should be a good experience. You don't have to play with anyone else if you don't want to and there will certainly be people willing to share their stories and experiences with newcomers.

The important thing is to NOT do anything until you're both comfortable and excited about it. In fact, that's kind of when I knew we were ready, we were excited about it and we started talking about it a lot during sex too.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Ann

[Mark & Lin]

May I suggest that you read my other e-novel (I do tend to ramble) in this forum titled What Happens at a Swing Club? I had received several questions about swing clubs and decided to explain a few things about swing clubs as we've experienced them.

Without rehashing the entire post, we've found that the majority of people who go to on-premise clubs never participate with another couple. They interact with other couples, but they play only with their partners. That is a good way to meet people, discuss the lifestyle, and if things click between the two of you and the other couple, it's a good time to get opinions and share your story face to face with other, more experienced couples.

A little word about 'orgies.' We have yet to actually see one. I'm not saying that they don't happen, but in our years in this lifestyle we've never seen it happen. We host house parties on occasion, and we've had up to 10 couples or more in our home for the evening. What usually happens is that people tend to split off into groups of 2-4, sometimes more, and move things into one of the bedrooms. If they leave the door open, you're invited to watch, but not participate unless you're invited. If the door is closed, you leave it closed and move on. It doesn't always happen that way, but in all of the parties we've attended or hosted, we've yet to see things progress to the point where everyone is participating in the same room - no matter how hard I try - but I digress…

Ann offers some great advice - especially, "The important thing is to NOT do anything until you're both comfortable and excited about it." Well put, Ann. That advice can't be stressed enough. If you're not excited by it, why do it? That would be akin to just going through the motions to get it over with. How fun is that? If you're not comfortable with something, it's going to make you even more nervous and scared, and you'll never relax. You're bound to be nervous and a bit scared your first time, but how can you have a good time if you're too nervous and scared to be able to relax and enjoy it? Well, that's going to be different for every individual, so the best you can do is talk, listen, and think about it until you're both comfortable with it enough in your minds that you can relax and let the excitement come through.

Ann hit upon another fabulous point, in that I don't think either of you is considering the wants and desires of your potential playmates. I think, as Ann said, you might be forgetting that they're human too. They're going to want certain things as well, and have rules of their own. They're not just a body you can use for a couple of hours, then dismiss. I think your rules may need a bit more scrutiny. I understand that you're concerned about intimacy - specifically, you're each concerned about your partner's intimacy with the other person. This is something that makes me think that maybe you're not ready to actually invite someone else into your bed. I'm seeing a bit of insecurity there. The entire act is intimate. To try to remove all of the intimacy is just about impossible. Let me give you something to illustrate my point. Do this - try having sex one weekend using just your rules - nothing more. In your example, you said he wasn't to have intercourse with her face to face - ok, do that, and only that. You also said that you weren't to have oral or vaginal sex with the other man - ok, do that, and only that. What I mean is, live by your own rules for the other person for the whole evening and see how it goes. One night live by your rules for him, the next night live by his rules for you. You might find that some of the things you're concerned about now aren't really justified, and that maybe some changes are called for.

This is what I mean when I say that you need to be able to separate sex from love. Sex is by its very nature an intimate act. You both need to understand that sex and intimacy don't necessarily mean love or emotion. When Lin and I first started swinging with other couples, she was very concerned with emotional attachments. She wasn't so much concerned that I'd get emotionally involved with another woman, but rather the other woman would become emotionally attached to me. It bothered her for about the first 6 months. When she saw for herself that the sex was just sex, and the other woman wasn't taking any part of me away from her, she was able to see for herself that something like that just wasn't going to happen. We still talk about that aspect of the lifestyle, and our relationship, and neither of us will let anything like that happen. That's all part of the 'getting to know you' process of meeting potential playmates. You have to get to know a person before you can go any further with them. After a while, you can start to read a person in a pretty short amount of time, and be able to separate the good candidates from the person you feel might just want more than you're willing to give.

Remember - each and every one of your potential playmates has to be seen (by BOTH of you) as an augmentation to your sex life - they're additions, not replacements. You can't let everything be perceived as a threat to your relationship. It's true that if ANYTHING feels like it might be a threat to your relationship, you should stop and back away from the person or situation. If you perceive the act itself as a threat, then you shouldn't even consider trying the lifestyle.

I'm not saying that you should adopt an 'anything goes' attitude - far from it. What I'm saying is to put yourself into the other person's place and see how easy or difficult it is to follow your rules, no matter what they may be. You might find that some adjustments need to be made, and that may require a lot more discussion and soul searching. You can have so many rules and limits that it just about eliminates every act other than shaking hands.

For example, a man watching a woman's face when she's climaxing is a huge turn-on for most men. It doesn't mean that he's in love with the woman. Think about this - what does him seeing her face during sex take away from you? The answer is - nothing. What will you do if she climaxes? Will you see that as a threat to your relationship? I've known some women who did get upset that another woman climaxed with her partner. My question is, what did she expect? I've seen it go the other way as well, meaning the man got upset with his partner because she climaxed with another man. How reasonable is that? Isn't an orgasm the expected result of the sexual act?

If you have decided that kissing is not allowed, that's fine. A lot of couples do that. Lin has decided that anal sex is reserved for the two of us, and in the case of double penetration, I'm the only one allowed to 'knock at the back door.' Some couples reserve vaginal intercourse for themselves only, and don't go any further than oral sex with another partner. That's pretty common too. Some couples won't perform oral with anyone other than their partner - ok, great. You do have to set rules and limits, but you have to set rules and limits that can actually be lived by. A rule that you know can't be lived up to is an unreasonable rule. Sure, you can tell him not to get an erection when he sees a woman undressing in the same room with the two of you, but you know that he will - it's a reflex. If you get upset that he did get an erection by watching another woman undress, he's not the one being unreasonable - you are. I know that's an extreme example of an unreasonable rule, but you get my point.

Continued Below (I told you I do tend to ramble...)

[Mark & Lin]

Having said all of that, you can overanalyze things very easily. First time swingers do that a lot - been there, done that. We tend to look at the tiniest detail, wondering if it has some other hidden meaning that we're just not seeing. Don't get caught up in the minutiae - some things just don't mean anything. For example, a man putting his hands on a woman's hips while having sex doggie style means he's getting some leverage to be able to perform - that's all. It doesn't mean anything else. A woman wanting to be on top, facing the man might just mean that that's her favorite position, and she knows that she'll climax that way - that's all. Don't try to overanalyze things to the point that you're reading something into them that just isn't there. If you do, you'll find yourself studying everything so closely, looking for some hidden meaning, that you won't be able to see the big picture, relax, and enjoy yourself. You'll spend all of your time watching for signs that all is not well when nothing could be further from the truth. Relax - this is supposed to be fun and exciting, remember? Sex doesn't need a referee and a penalty system.

I know I've gone all over the place with this post, but that's the way I am - I get started and just don't know when to quit. I also don't think you're going to like my advice to you two. I think you both need to do a lot more thinking, soul searching, and discussing before you pursue this any further. Take baby steps - there's really no rush. I think a trip to an on-premise swing club might be a great first step for you, as long as you both agree not to participate with anyone other than each other. That would be the perfect place to see for yourselves how others interact, and get a feel for that aspect of the lifestyle. It won't answer all of your questions - in fact it'll probably breed more. By seeing it play out in person, however, you can better come to grips with some of the concerns you have, see things as an outsider looking in, and maybe be able to put aside some of your fears.

I don't think either of you really understand what you hope to get out of the lifestyle as a couple, or as individuals. I think that having rules and limits is a must. On the other hand having too many of either might be unreasonable. Another thing to consider is that some of your present rules might be so restrictive that you'll find very few potential playmates that would take you up on your invitation. I think you need to think about and discuss some of the reasons behind wanting certain rules and limits. Insecurity isn't a bad thing - it keeps us safe, healthy, and provides us with motivation to better ourselves. Insecurity in your relationship, your partner's commitment to your relationship, or his/her devotion to you, however, is a recipe for disaster if you're contemplating the lifestyle. If you can't say with 100% certainty that inviting another person to join the two of you in bed will not damage your relationship, then my advice to you is that you don't even consider trying it. Leave it a fantasy.

Please don't take anything I've posted as an insult. I really don't mean anything in that way. Sometimes we need to have things put to us in frank terms in order to gauge our reactions. I'm not accusing, confronting, or questioning the motives of either of you. I'm merely presenting things that I think you need to seriously think about before you move forward. The last thing I want to see is your relationship damaged. If that means I nudge you out of your comfort level a bit with hypothetical situations to get you to think about them BEFORE they happen in real life, so be it. I sincerely want the two of you to be happy no matter what you decide to do. If that means stopping you from making a big mistake because something happened that you aren't ready to deal with, I'll gladly take the blame.

Again, if you have any comments or questions at all, please do post them.

Mark

[nightshade44637]

Thanks for your responses guys! Don't worry about saying a lot, it helps and I do that myself so I understand. I'd rather totally understand what you're saying than not. That being said I’ll try to be plainer without being graphic as to what our goals are for seeking threesome sex out.

I think a lot of my insecurity and his about some positions comes from the fact that personally it's a very intimate and emotional interaction when we do that position or that act with each other. It has a little less to do with fear of intimacy (of the emotional sort) with another person (though that is there too) than the fact it's something we value between us that we want to keep for us alone. That we want to be able to interact with each other while the other is playing with the third to enjoy each other arousal and now we share it and neither of us is left out in some way. Eye contact plays a big part in that I think, at least for us. We trust each other implicitly but are scared of the third taking the sex to a level that is more binding or that guilt might enter into it since we haven’t shared sex with anyone else, even before we got together.

Yes I do get scared about him being allowed entry for the most obvious point that it's something only we have shared and I enjoy that fact on some level (same goes for another man entering my vagina or anally) but I also get seriously turned on by the idea of letting him have that entry and helping him to climax with her. In a way, I see it as only right that he be allowed that since I have been with her in that same room and part of what arouses me about the image of him entering her is that it's something I can't do for her. I want him to be able to experience another woman as long as I am there with him to see that pleasure and can see that it's about us as much as it is about him enjoying someone for sexual gratification. I see it as a gift that I can share with him.

That being said we’ve also agreed that he’d be just as happy to just watch and then have oral from us (our limitation isn’t that she can’t orally stimulate him at all but that only I may take in the shaft) or sex with me while I do things to her. We want BOTH of us as a couple to be certain before entry happens between the two of them. He feels he may not want that if the circumstances don’t offer him it without guilt or fear coming into it on a level that bothers him or might make me pull away from him and just let it happen. So we believe that both of us must ok any interaction between him and her and that she must be ok with it as well. My desires beyond his penetration are that I can be with and experience a woman in an open environment where my bf can see how women are erotic to me, that we share our interests in other women even though neither of us has ever acted on it outside our relationship. He’s had me sexually but never had sex for purely carnal reasons and I’ve never been with a woman though I’ve had feelings for one in the past. We’d both be fulfilling desires in this; neither of us is left out on any level. I suppose the big thing here is to take into consideration what she might want.

In the case of entry between the man and me, it’s about him being able to pleasure me as completely as my bf’s always wanted to. He has desires to see me penetrated while I’m blowing him or to have DP to experience what it’s like to have that level of penetration because he’s wanted to do that for me and can’t get it to work with a vibrator and him inside me. These images make me very aroused because I did have fantasies of two men sharing me before we were together, so I’m happy to ablidge him as much as he’s comfortable with. I don’t need vaginal entry from the other man but if he had wanted it, I’d have been ok with it because it fits my original fantasy of being desired and pleasured by two men. He wants to be able to take a step back and see what my arousal looks like from a different perspective, to enjoy me in a carnal state that he has yet to be able to explore fully when inside me. He also wants to be able to experience the act of being penetrated. He enjoys a vibrator but we both agree that the more organic nature of a penis would feel even better and more natural. He’s fantasized about entry for some time but has been afraid to bring it up because he feels he is not actually attracted to men beyond this desire and therefore didn’t want me to see him as perverse for wanting to share me with another man or for me to share him with that other man. Imagine his surprise when I told him the idea of him being penetrated alone made me aroused, much less any more play between the three of us!


Does this give a better perspective as to our wants/desires in this and the compromises we could take if we wanted something more subtle?

We see these acts as us acting together as a couple to bring ourselves and another person arousal and sexual pleasure. I think it’s just hard to think forward to that other person beyond a vague understanding of what they might want from it.

I mean what were you two’s perspectives with entry on both sides of it? What thoughts came to mind the first time and afterwards when you tried it again? What sort of discussion do you have about this interaction now compared to before you started? I have read the threesome article Ann posted on her page, but I don’t think I read his articles. I have bookmarked the one about what it’s like to go to a swing club however, intending to read it with my bf later.

[Mark & Lin]

I can't give you an answer in this little "Quick Reply" box. Read my post titled "How We Got Involved in Swinging" in this forum. It'll answer a lot of your questions, because I had many of the same questions - that's why I wrote it.

[Mark & Lin]

Looking back over this entire thread, I better understand what you want to try. Basically, you're looking for a bi male and a bi female. Be warned that bisexual men are relatively rare in the lifestyle - they're out there, there are just not that many of them. I just did a quick search on the swinger's website we're members of, and out of the 736 couples that are local members (local to us that is,) 37 of them are a couple with both members bi. I found 135 straight single males, and 38 bi single males. Over 330 of those couples feature a bi female, so you see how bi males are proportionally rare. You should also know that in our 7 years of going to swing clubs, we've never seen bi male sex at a club. We've seen lots of bi female sex, but bi male sex is less accepted in swing clubs, and is better left behind closed doors. I really don't know why that is, but it is reality.

How you find these couples is up to you. There are several websites that you can go to that will let you post an online profile, which will let you detail what you're looking for. Yes you will have to become a member, but most of these sites offer free memberships, those free memberships just restrict your activities on that particular site in some way. Some restrict you from seeing nude photos, some limit the number of e-mails you can send through their e-mail system per week or per month - things like that. When you fill out your online profile, you should be pretty specific in describing yourselves, and about what you're looking for, without going into graphic detail. We've found that letting him describe her and letting her describe him works very well, as we tend to be pretty bad at describing ourselves. You'll also be able to search or browse for other couples in your area based on criteria you select. As you whittle down all of the candidates to the couples that you're not only attracted to, but who also meet your criteria, contact them via whatever method your way of locating these couples allows. The couples who are interested will respond to you, and you can take it from there.

I think that if you find a few local couples that interest you, you should meet them one at a time in a neutral place over coffee or drinks, and discuss things with them. That's normally how we prefer to meet people, other than in a club. A couple with experience that you're friendly with will be able to guide you into this lifestyle face to face better than our text messages or anything else you read online ever could.

Just be open and honest with them, and with yourselves, about what you're looking for, what you hope to find, and what you'd like to get out of the experience. Explain your rules and limits to them, and discuss your reasons for them. Let them know you're very new, and discuss your fears, fantasies, and your concerns with them. In fact, you should let them know you're new to everything before you ever meet face to face - that info should also be included in your online profile, should you decide to create one. Some couples don't like to be with new couples, because they're afraid of any repercussions should you two decide that things aren't going the way you wanted them, and decide to stop in mid-stream, so to speak. That, and a few other things like jealousy, is known as 'Drama' in the lifestyle. You'll actually see some couples specifically state "no drama' or 'drama free.' I will also warn you that the more complicated you make things, the fewer the people you'll meet. The swing lifestyle is a small community is almost every area, and word travels fast. If you're perceived as a couple who doesn't know what they want, or generates too much drama, you'll have a hard time shaking that reputation.

As you meet these couples face to face, you'll get a feel for which people you click with, and which ones you don't. If after you've met and had some time to discuss them later on at home, you decide that you didn't particularly hit it off with either or both of them, let them know that you've decided that you don't think you're compatible, and move on. Nobody can be attracted to everyone they meet, and you won't hit it off with everyone you meet either - that's normal, and the vast majority of swingers accept it graciously. Just politely tell them that you don't think you're compatible at this time. You don't need to go into long explanations.

If you do hit it off, you can proceed at a pace that makes you all feel comfortable. Do not expect to do anything with them on your first meeting - maybe your first few meetings. That's up to each couple to decide, along with you, but more often than not, nothing happens on the first meeting. You are NEVER obligated to do ANYTHING by just showing up. You should make it known before you meet them that you're just meeting them and nothing more that night. All of you will need a bit of time to decide whether or not you actually hit it off, or if it was just the excitement of the moment. You two will need some time to discuss things with each other, share your feelings and instincts about them, and come to an agreement on how you want to proceed. We normally get to know someone for a couple of months and meet them several times before we play with them. There are a few couples we've known for a couple of years that we still haven't played with for one reason or another (work schedules, they have children, babysitting problems and such…) but we're still friends with. Life happens.

I still think that before you do any of the above, however, you need to keep talking about things with each other and thinking on your own. You both have to be 100% certain you want to do this. Other than actually ending it, this is the biggest single change any couple can make to their relationship. It's not for everyone. The overwhelming majority of couples should never try it - they're just not able to or ready to handle the complexities of the lifestyle when it comes to emotions and feelings. Some do it anyway, and most of those damage their relationships beyond repair because they just weren't ready to 'take the plunge,' even though they thought they were. I could tell you a lot of stories about couples we've met and decided not to play with for one reason or another, and we've later found out that some of these couples have separated down the road. It happens.

I really think your first actual step into this lifestyle should be to go to a swing club and do a bit of exploring - whether that be an on-premise club or an off-premise club is totally up to you. That way you'll be able to interact with people of a like mind and see how people get together to begin with in that kind of atmosphere. I think you both need to agree not to participate with anyone but each other, and be able to trust each other to stick with that rule. Just mingle, have fun, watch, and learn. You WILL be nervous and scared - that's just natural. Don't sweat it - everyone there had a first time too. Just remember that no means no, and that the club staff will be more than happy to answer any questions you have about the club and it's facilities. They're there for you to have a good time, so they want you to be as comfortable as you possibly can be. If you have any questions or problems at all, talk to somebody on the club staff.

I think that after a few trips to a club you'll both relax a lot, and you'll see that some of your fears and concerns will have been answered. I still tease Lin about tucking into a ball and trembling like a baby on our first trip to a club - ok, she wasn't really that bad, but darned close. Now, we don't even think about half of what we were worried about in the beginning. It's almost second nature to us to get naked in the party room and have a good time - whether that be with each other or some of our friends. We've made some very good friends in the lifestyle, and met some fascinating people. It's a bit overwhelming and can be pretty intimidating at first, but you'll relax soon enough and find that you're having a great time when you're ready to.

Meeting couples in a club will get easier for you as you become more relaxed. You'll be able to talk to people who are experienced, get opinions, get some of your questions answered, and make some new friends. People WILL approach you to talk. Don't be worried about it - NOBODY is going to do anything you don't want them to. Again, please read What Happens in a Swing Club?

Don't be surprised if you find that very few people want to even talk about bi males. In fact, we've not only never seen bi male sex in a club, but we've never even heard it discussed. With the vast majority of males in the lifestyle being straight, I don't think most people are very receptive to that idea in a club environment. Every club is different, but that's been our experience.

Again, if you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to post them. Despite how you may perceive the tone of my posts, I'm really a very easy guy to get along with, and will gladly answer anything I know the answer to. I truly love to talk about the lifestyle and our experiences in it. I'm really quite passionate about it. I just hate to see someone rush into something, and get emotionally blindsided by something they weren't expecting. It took us almost 2 years from the time I first started thinking about it, until we actually did anything with someone else. I'm not saying it will or should take you that long - that's what was right for us.

Hope to hear from you again soon, no matter what you decide.

Mark

[nightshade44637]

and we've actually opted not to act on these fantasies. The imagery and the fantasies are very erotic, but in light of our needs as a couple we think we really don't need to make them real. The idea of sharing that eroticism with someone else is mentally appealing but in reality? It might be far more than we really want. Does that make sense? To think about all this for so long and discuss it so thoroughly and suddenly come to the conclusion it's not really needed and know that it's our final decision on the matter?

I thank you for your advice and for sharing what you have with us about your own experiences. It's helped a great deal as far as coming to the conclusion and talking over what we wanted if we did act on them. I'll still coem here fopr any other sex advice i might need. YOu're a very valuable resource.